Can anyone explain to me why local hire's do not get any support from housing. We live off base as  active duty and will be retired next month with a local hire position on base. Now housing is coming to pick up all our appliances and we have to quickly find a fridge, washer and oven. It doesn't seem right they do not support local hires, no housing allowance or loaners while you are here. We even have to return the smoke and carbon monaxide detectors.

I asked this same question years ago when I was a local hire, and the answer simply was: There isn't enough money. In order to provide all of the amenities to local hires would require a tremendous amount of logistical support. There is also the unfortunate issue that local hires are much more transient than the stateside hires as far as their jobs. Most local hires will change jobs two or three times, making it difficult to track and recover the items in the long run.

Sometimes your transportation agreement can be continued when you are hired upon retirement. This means you retain stateside hire rights. I am not sure how often they do this, but I know for a fact it can be done.

We are fighting now to keep our transportation agreement. We have heard some people took up to a year to get it.
So in the mean time I still have to buy appliances that I will have to sell in a few years. But on a possitive note I do get the fridge I want.

I've heard back in the day, everyone was considered a stateside employee.

The only reason why they established the LOCAL HIRE classification was for dependents.

This was put in place, so a military member (husband) who had a spouse working at a govt civilian job wouldn't receive duplicate benefits for housing.

This I completely understand and agree with. But we all know, once the govt realized, that people were willing to take some of those positions (SIMPLY because they wanted to remain in Japan, and didnt mind losing those benefits) they decided to make it a more common path for new hires.

They saved a bundle and continue to save a bundle offering wages, without housing/relocation benefits.

If someone is single, with no ties to a military member living overseas, working and making $50,000-$60,000 a year, its difficult to save much money, when your paying $25-$30K a year in rent alone. Let alone the GS/NSPS also pay taxes living oveseas.

Thats the best benefit of contractors is the TAX exempt benefit. That alone saves $10-$20K in some circumstances for contractors over govt civilians.

It is possible as someone stated about the transportation agreement, but its very very difficult to optain. It has nothing to do with the command you will be supporting. Its up to the local HRO.

Also 1 more thing to note.

If you are remaining here in Japan, and depending on how long consecutively you have been here, lets say 3 years already, and you transfer out into a govt civilian, they will hit you with the 5 year rule in possibly 2 years. They have told people after being here for 2-3 years, that they only have 2-3 more years to remain here, and then they have to turn around and leave. I would definitely ASK questions to the HRO regarding these sort of situations, and how your contract is written.

I've also heard about some peoples contracts being written that states they arent allowed to transfer positions from one local hire to another. They would have to leave Japan, to apply for another local hire, because your locked in.

I hear rumors after rumors from people in the system, and how they have gotten screwed in the past.

Best advice is ASK QUESTIONS first. Fully understand what your getting yourself into, before its too late, and you cannot negotiate anything.

I wonder with as many people not wanting to come here because of 3/11 if the rules would change. I know thw navy is having a hard tme filling some billets because of it.

I am going to have to check on the 5 year rule. We have been here 3 and we are expecting to stay for 3 or 5 more.

You can get extended past 5 years up to 7 years but then if you want to stay, it has to be approved and lately they really haven't been approving past 7 years it seems.

I'm not sure if that 7 year rule is so concrete as I know a few people who have been here about 10 years straight.

As long as it gets approved, you good.

I have heard that OPM is revising the rule to make it a TOTAL of 7 years (no ifs, ands, or buts). If that change happens, I know a lot of people are gonna be shipped back home.

As for the allowances/benefits of LQA - like it was mentioned, they're "established" in your transportation agreement, which most (if not all) local hires do not have since they were not "transported" here.

I'd be interested to find out if you manage to retain your transportation agreement (if just temporarily) - I may want to think about that when my 3 to 5 are up.

The new rules for extensions are pretty damn solid. Your initial tour is 3 years. Your local supervisor can extend you for an additional two. Once 5 years are complete, it has to go to the Regional Commander (Admiral Cloyd for CNFJ/RJ). If approved to 7, you will have to request the next extension through CNIC HQ or equivalent. Don't expect to see a lot of that.

Also, there is a new rider on the extensions stating that once your orders are up and you go back to the states, you are not eligible for another overseas position for two years.

There are plenty of folks who are worried that they will have to go back to CONUS now. The PPP program is filling quickly, and jobs in the states will become harder to find as well. If you have return rights, they also die at the 5 year point for most, so the 7 year extension could leave you hanging in the wind come time to return to CONUS>

When I got out of the Navy in 1994 I worked for MWR in Europe as a local hire with no LQA or COLA. Now they are giving COLA to full-time employees, or at least that's my understanding anyway. I decided to become a DoDDS teacher for that reason, i.e., fear of the 5-year rule, and no LQA. It's a powerful force and I can completely understand why people get out of the Navy and stay locally without the LQA due to their family situation.

so if I am hearing right would his active duty count towards the 5 year rule? I would hate to thing they hired him just to have him leave in two years. and then we would have to wait 2 years stateside to come back to an overseas job? This kind of makes me nervous.

I know alot of local hires nervous right now because they have been here way over the 5/7 year mark. They do a great job and I wold hate to see them leave.
What happen to the if it ain't broke do not fix it.

Posted By Tricia on 08-06-2011 12:02 PM
We are fighting now to keep our transportation agreement. We have heard some people took up to a year to get it.
So in the mean time I still have to buy appliances that I will have to sell in a few years. But on a possitive note I do get the fridge I want.

Have you looked at Craigslist Japan?  You can find a lot of CHEAP appliances from people leaving Japan and looking to get rid of them in a hurry.  I've seen some really nice ones on there go for a fraction of their retail price. 

http://tokyo.craigslist.jp/

Thanks Yoko-girl we have looked and have called. Most of them are very small or already sold. The one I wanted he had already sold it but after shopping around the electronics store he wanted too much for it. We ended up buying a new one for alost the same price. Plus I would have to pay to deliver it so I think it equalled out.
I am holding out on the washer for a good deal so hopefully I will find one on craigs list or gaijinpot.com.

Posted By Tricia on 08-06-2011 10:12 PM
so if I am hearing right would his active duty count towards the 5 year rule? I would hate to thing they hired him just to have him leave in two years. and then we would have to wait 2 years stateside to come back to an overseas job? This kind of makes me nervous.

I know alot of local hires nervous right now because they have been here way over the 5/7 year mark. They do a great job and I wold hate to see them leave.
What happen to the if it ain't broke do not fix it.

I don't think the 5/7 year rule applies to "local hires". 

Usually, it only affects PCS'd USCS employees.

It appplies to local hires too. That is part of the recent complaints. There are a few exceptions, but for the most part ALL GS employees overseas are impacted by the new (old but reinstated/enforced) rules.

What I find ridiculous is that they are struggling to get people to come over here to Japan, yet there are local hires who want to be here & they are being forced out via the 5-year rule.

Another thing, they are getting over hand-over-fist. By that I mean, the positions that myself & my coworkers are in are actually a pay grade above our in the states. However, they are having us fill the same positions at a lower pay grade. The job descriptions are the same. They get away with it by changing the name of the position.

Plus, we don't get money for housing. We only get a paycheck & food allowance, & are allowed to use the commissary, NEX, & MWR facilities, which are the same things that stateside hires get, plus they get housing allowances.

The Navy claims it wants to save money, but if they choose to not extend a local hire they have to pay to move them back to the states. Plus they have to bring people over from the states.

RIDICULOUS! They spend more money doing that instead of keeping people here WHO WANT TO BE HERE.

Also, most local hires didn't take off when the crap hit the fan after the earthquake & tsunami. Most people who have been here for a long time understand & accept the fact that Japan is prone to natural disasters.

I can live without the housing, but I say stop applying the 5-year rule to local hires. If someone can get a GS position in BF California & homestead there their entire career, then why can't people who are local hires in other countries? Most have families in these other countries & that is their reason for being here.

I know everything revolves around the TRANSPORTATION AGREEMENT.  I was active duty living on base and then separated from the Navy (Separated in Japan).  I was hired "LOCALLY" as a GS  cause I never left Japan.  But, because I never used any funding from my separation orders, I qualified for "STATESIDE" benefits (LQA and Post Allowance).  I tried to apply for base housing again and was told, because I don't have a transportation agreement I do not qualify for base housing.  Cool! I read the CNFJ instruction and understand thats one of the required docs.  ***This is what pisses me off.***  I know there are "LOCAL HIRE" civilians with no transportation agreements or any stateside benefits living ONBASE and paying out of pocket to live there!!   Now how can you say its ok for some but not for others?  Spin that one.  

Posted By John on 03-05-2012 9:28 PM
  I know there are "LOCAL HIRE" civilians with no transportation agreements or any stateside benefits living ONBASE and paying out of pocket to live there!!     

How is that possible?  Have you spoken with them personally to find out how they are authorized to do that? 

Come to think of it I know someone that retired, his wife was and is a local hire, he secured local hire employment and they still live on base.  Next time I see them I'll ask them about it.

What is their GS rank, I wonder if that makes a difference?

I don't think he's a GS I think he's working for a contractor.

Doesn't Yokota have an excess of housing? I have heard contractors have been given the option of paying rent to live on base.

He is a GS hired from HRO here in Yokosuka.  He was in the states and paid out of pocket to move his family and HHG to Japan.  Thats how bad he wanted to come back to Japan.

Posted By NichiBeiOne on 03-06-2012 12:03 PM
Doesn't Yokota have an excess of housing? I have heard contractors have been given the option of paying rent to live on base.

I haven't heard that but I have heard military must live on base recently, I see many homes not occupied around.  I have heard single personnel (civilian) being forced off base recently.

There is a GS 13 I know that is about to retire in august that just moved on base. They lived in town until housing was offered to them on base in Yokosuka.

Posted By DR on 03-06-2012 12:05 PM
This topic interests me. I was thinking of getting hired here when I retire. I don't understand the rules being discussed here, can anyone be more specific regarding how long one is allowed to work here, the difference between "stateside" or "local" hire, private vs. government employment, and is "stateside" hiring only a government job thing with regards to the benefits? I have a friend who works for a private contracter and I have never hear him mention anything about stay times, he does have base privelages, but he is retired..

Sorry if the questions are ignorant.

Those are all valid questions and concerns because there is a difference between them all.  I am not an expert on any of them because I don't fall into any of them personally.  Perhaps some GS folks can clarify the process?

I am a little familiar with the DoDDS side of the house, their process is basically stateside hire and local hires.

Stateside equals full pay and benefits (medical, dental, housing allowance, post allowance, utilities, movement of HHG's, transportation to the location and RAT (airline tickets for the family every 2 years or less at other locations)

Local hires equal a paycheck for working when the sponsor departs the country the position ends for them unless they transfer and become the sponsor.  I'm not sure if the receive post allowance or not.

It's most likely a 30-40K difference maybe more when you look at the big picture.

Policy is for DoD Civilian Employees to leave Japan after 5 years just like the military is suppose to leave after 8 years.  However, there are certain Commands that do not follow this.  There are people around the base who have sat in the same chair for over 20 years.  How?  I don't know?  There are waivers that civilians can apply for to remain in Japan for up to 7 years.  That is the longest I have personally seen by a command that follows AND enforces the "5-year rule".   Stateside Hire is just what it says.  Someone hired FROM the states to work overseas.  In most cases this comes with benefits that you would normally see in the military (i.e OHA, COLA).   This can be accomplished with out ever leaving Japan. Find a job thats states in the announcement that you will receive the extra benefits.  When you retire, make sure your DO NOT use any of your funding from your retirement orders (i.e shipping HHG, plane tickets).  Once you use those orders and funding you will no longer be eligible  for stateside benefits and will be considered "Local Hire".  Local hire is still a GS job but without the housing allowance (LQA) and post allowance (PAL).  Try to stay away from HRO Yokosuka job listing as 99% of those jobs are for dependents and always state:

1. This position is one which this activity normally recruits for locally; therefore, Living Quarter Allowance (LQA), Transportation or any other benefits normally paid to a “Stateside” hire will NOT be granted. 

   I am new to the civilian side myself so I am learning a lot after the fact.  Hoping to pass on some good information to others so that it may help them make a sound decision.

Couple of things to note. The hiring pool is smaller for local hires. So if you are looking to get some experience it might be easier to move up the ladder it might be a good place to start. Also it seems that some gs-11 are popping up as local to save money on all the benefits.

The jobs people have had for 20 years are pretty locked in, and they will never leave. I know of a couple places that do it.

I have heard you can transfer in country and get the benefits if you work for DODEA and have ten-yer.

I am reluctant to say much more, it make it harder for me to get the better jobs as they come open.

Local can apply for US jobs, and might get chosen because they money the military saves not having to pay for LQA.

It sounds like none of these rules apply to contracters working for civilian companies.
It seems like the rule is if I did decide to take a DoD job here, as long as I didnt use HHG shipments or plane tickets etc. then I would be eligible as a stateside hire.
I'm still unclear on the time limit for staying here thingy, maybe if you work yourself into a job in which they feel like they cannot replace you easily then you don't have to worry about it.
Sounds good. Thanks for the info.

More info:

The individual I was referring to retired from AD and acquired a stateside hired GS position allowing SOFA status to continue, he retired in Japan and never moved out of on-base housing and never left Japan. So it can be done.

Not sure about Yokota, but I had to move off base and then reapply for base housing.  I was told I had to move cause my status changed from active duty to civilian.  So, I had to pay out of pocket to move off base and then pay again to move back on base.  To me and the family it was worth it because of daycare/school.  I also know some retired people who never left their house on base.  My guess is that they started their civilian job while they were on terminal leave.  That way they can play both sides when its convenient for them.  

I currently live in the US and want to go back to Japan soon. I thought it was simply a matter of, "hired while living in the US, you're stateside; hired while living in Japan, you're local." From what I'm reading here, that's not always the case.

I'm looking for a GS position at Yokota (I'd also consider Zama), but haven't found any job matches recently. Because of my Japanese wife's family situation, I'll probably go to Japan and work off base while continuing to look for a GS position. A few questions about local hire:

- Would I have access to the BX, Commissary, MWR, UMUC, etc?
- Any chance of getting a post office box?
- Am I correct that my son wouldn't be eligible for DoDDS?
- Let's say I start at a GS7 local hire. Is it possible to switch to stateside hire if I get promoted to GS9 in the same position, or would I need to be applying for another job?

To answer your question, its based on your situation... If you do not get a job "on base" and you are not a retired service member, you would NOT have access to the BX/PX, Commissary, MWR,  post office, and DoDDS system. 

If you are a local hire GS employee (NO TQSA, LQA, RAT travel, base legal support and return rights), then you would receive the privledges to utilizeBX/PX, Commissary, MWR,  post office, base drivers license and DoD sticker, and DoDDS system.  Remember, Medical and Dental would be paid through a U.S. based insurance company and it would be fee for servie (100% paid by you for dental and a tricare deductables for medical). 

If you are a contractor, it depends on the company (if they pay housing allowance and for the use of DoDDS (est. $10k per year)). You also would receive the privledges to utilize BX/PX, Commissary, MWR,  post office, base drivers license and DoD sticker, and medical and dental is still the same.

Thanks, Ron.  I didn't expect to have base access as an off-base person.

Although I'd much rather be a stateside hire, I'm surprised I'd have access to so much as a local hire.  But 100% employee-paid dental?  That could be rough.