Question From Ikego Housing Detachment May 17th, 2011 Town Hall Minutes


Q: Can we get designated areas for smokers? Some of us are getting secondhand smoke into our apartments from those who are smoking on their balconies?

A: This request cannot be supported. There is no Navy policy prohibiting smoking on balconies in military family housing. Residents are expected to be good neighbors and talk with each other and find solutions. Often, it may only be a matter of compromise and shutting a window temporarily. If the residents concerned cannot come to an agreement, then they should contact housing for assistance. Housing will help mediate between the occupants, as needed. There is currently not enough of a demand to secure smoking on all balconies, as a general policy.

Second-hand smoke does not just come in through balconies. Ikego towers have a central ventilation system and second-hand smoke comes through that system. SECNAVINST 5100.13E states under "Multiple Housing Units", Tobacco use is prohibited in lodges served by a common HVAC system." Towers have a common HVAC system.

SECNAVINST also states "Designated tobacco use areas may be permitted in multiple housing units (e.g., family housing apartment complexes, BQs, Navy Lodges, lodging ... provided the designated tobacco use areas are separately ventilated and exhaust directly to the outdoors away from common points of facility entry/egress and not in front of air intake ducts. This determination shall be made by the CO with assistance from the responsible environmental engineer."

It is not just a matter of shutting a window temporarily. I know of someone who has had to seal off the window in their child's bedroom because he was being adversely impacted by secondhand smoke coming into his bedroom.

Oh yeah, we'll smell it in the dead of winter with the all windows closed. Then there is the matter of the cigarette butts on my porch...

It's not just a nuisance. It's crap I have to put up with daily.

Posted By JB Staff on 05-28-2011 12:38 AM

There is no Navy policy prohibiting smoking on balconies in military family housing.

There is currently not enough of a demand to secure smoking on all balconies, as a general policy.

Typical bureaucratic answer.  We all know that local commanders can impose stricter regulations if they so desire; they simply cannot be more lenient than higher-authority directives. Therefore, saying there is no such Navy policy is nothing more than dodging the question and avoiding accountability.

As far as "not enough demand"... where is your data to back up that claim?  Does that simply mean not enough people have complained?  How many would it take?  Besides, the writer is not asking to secure smoking on all balconies... they are requesting to delineate a no-smoking area of housing. Are you prepared to say there is not even enough interest in this?  I would find that hard to believe.

Maybe it is simply a harder issue than the housing office cares to tackle.  Of course, ships, restaurants, hotels and apartments have found ways to deal with this problem, but not base housing.

Ofcourse not ThaiGuy, havent you heard? Dependants didnt come in a sailors seabag. Thats what that says to me. You are not important enuff to make this a policy or an issue. Even the childern arnt important enuff, to have the hosuing office give the parents the option of having them live in non smoking quarters.

Which in away only hurts the navy in the furture. Alot of boys and girls follow in mommy and dadys foot steps. Sad to see alot wont be able too because of complications of second hand smoke like cancer or asthma.which in away also makes the navy pay more money through childhood of these childern. I mean all the extra medical stuff for asthma and upper respitory infections just from breathing in second hand smoke while they have a cold or something. You could probly cut a few thousand if not a few million dollars off medicals exspense out of the navy as a whole (or in an area) just by offering families non smoking quarters.

It wouldnt even be hard to do. All the top three floors are smoking (because smoke rises) or you have two towers one is for smoking one is not. And give people the chance to switch if they want. Then give the non smoking building a picnic table with a trash can near the smoking building for the leftover smokers that couldnt move or didnt want to. Or the smokers who dont want to smoke near their kids. Ta-dah. But I again I am just talking crazy talk 0o.*that could never work*<-----------insert sarcams here.

Designating smoking towers and non-smoking towers is a very sensible solution which is probably why it won't be done. When I deliver newspapers for my son on Thursday, I am on every floor in two of the towers here in Ikego. Almost every floor has 3 empty apartments. There is room here in Ikego to do this. Yes, it would take a concentrated effort to accomplish moving people but they could start by moving all in-coming smokers to certain buildings and offering to move non-smokers elsewhere. With all the SOLID data on the effects of second-hand smoke, it is inconceivable to me that the Navy just turns a blind eye to this problem. I guess not enough people have complained to make it worth the Navy's time.

If you are not getting the results you would like from the Housing office, I would try making an ICE submission. However, understand, that ICE is ONLY submitted online, when you see a drop box that say ICE on it, it has nothing to do with the ICE program, it is nothing more that a comment box for the command. When you submit via ICE, you submission goes off command and is tracked by people higher than the local command.

Give it a try, worst that happens is nothing changes.

Here is a link to the ICE webpage http://ice.disa.mil/index.cfm as most commands will hide or not even have it on there home pages.

HTGuy

If you ICE it, you MUST include your name & contact info if you expect any action. Don't be afraid; people always seem to worry about some kind of backlash so they go anonymous. Include your name & let us know what kind of response you get. I"ve been getting good results lately from ICE.

I am going to do an ICE submission, but I want to know how many people we can get together on our own to bring this issue up to higher level authorities other than Capt Owens who does not care, his expression and body language at the town hall meeting told me that much.

I have gone through the processes locally to address this situation and now it is time to take it to the next level. Here are a couple of other avenues we can take as a united group.

1. Write our Congressional Representatives: https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml - they can initiate a Congressional investigation into our issues. If we do this as a group, where we all sign a letter and copy to each of our representatives we will get some action.

2. File a complaint to the Office of Special Counsel: http://www.osc.gov/. Filing a complaint with the OSC may get us more traction because they are a government oversight agency that is not connected to the military and therefore cannot be intimidated by SECNAV or anyone else. A group complaint would be powerful here as well.

3. File a complaint on the national DoD IG Hotline: http://www.dodig.mil/hotline/fwacompl.htm; this may be a next step in order to give DoD a chance to correct the mis-perception by leadership here that there is no Navy Policy restricting smoking on balconies.

Bottom line is this, if we can organize ourselves into a group we can affect change. Sad thing is that we have local leadership that thinks its more important to treat smokers better than non-smokers, even after reading the SECNAV instruction!

My email address is marcsantossr@cox.net. Send me and email if you would like to join me in a group complaint about second-hand smoke in the towers.

I submitted comments to ICE about not having specific categories to rate housing conditions and the Command's actions on issues raised at town hall meetings, or the lack thereof. I also sent a comment to the White House at Whitehouse.gov concerning this issue (I don't expect much, but I can reference it in future actions).

What's next? Next time you make a stinky dinner, I run for cover and start complaining?? No I close my windows, turn on the exhaust fan and light some incense or candles.
This is community living people, it's part of the deal. There is always going to be something crappy we don't want to deal with from our neighbors. I'm not excited when I smell cigarettes, but hello, have you been anywhere lately? That is all you smell.
I hate my neighbor kids because they are loud and always liter. I do what I can, bitch to my hubby and laugh about it with friends.
Quit acting so entitled and find something else to do with your time. Peace

Kudos to marcsantossr for at least attempting to address the issue. Too many people would just roll over, not wanna rock the boat. I could see a long-term solution which does not involve moving current residents, but assigning new ones according to their smoking preferences. Over a period of years, the problem would sort itself out. The main obstacle is one of commitment & desire; too many people are willing to say it's "too hard" and give up before even trying.

I have been biting my tounge for some time now, but I guess I have read enough to comment.

Wow. Thats what comes to mind when I read a lot of these comments. Where did this sense of entitlement come from? Have people forgotten they aren't in a democracy overseas? I have seen more whining and complaining from members of this board than I would expect from anyone who is living in free housing and has everthing provided tax free at their fingertips.

WTF is with ICE commenting everything? If you don't like it, ICE it? From who? Dependents and Contractors? Guess what, if you don't like something, you have a choice. ERD, move out into town, close your windows.

I have seen members with hundreds of posts, and most of them are self-rightous holier than thou posts or complaints. Don't you have lives? I notice.a large quantity are posted during working hours. Glad to see the government is getting their money's worth.

Good grief. Get a grip. The world doesn't rotate around you.

Wow, so crappy stinky meals cause cancer knj?

And who is being self-righteous and entitled Makami? Me or the person who believes that despite rules and regulations they can impose their unhealthy habits on those who don't like what they do? You have no idea what the whole picture is and you want to preach to us? We have worked with our smoking neighbors and have gone the extra mile to live harmoniously, but when you ask a smoker to call you before they smoke so you can simply close your windows and doors and they don't then what do you think the next step ought to be? Are you going to come over and make that smoker live nice? Are you a smoker? Do you think you have the right to expose me to second hand smoke inside of my apartment? Should my house and furnishings and clothes smell like cigarettes just because a person wants to smoke outside to keep the smoke from being in their apartment? This guy moved in here after I did, why do I have to move when I have tried to work out a settlement? No partner, it's not me who is acting entitled.

As for who is posting when, some of the people who are posting during the times you work may work shifts opposite of you or are spouses. But of course you would not recognize that fact because you are into assumptions rather than facts.

You assume we think the world rotates around us, and you are wrong again. We care about our health and when we are at home we choose not to be affected by people who do choose to smoke, that is our right. We have not personally attacked or impugned anyone's integrity because they choose to poison themselves, they have every right to do it to themselves, but no right to cause others to suffer.

So when you want to hate on people, hate with knowledge or keep your comments to yourself if the issue does not impact you!

Hey bud, you have three posts, so either you have a guilty conscience, a persecution complex, or a reading comprehension problem.

But, you have no spine apparently to set your neighbor straight. Quit whining and hiding behind ice comments and do something about it face to face. If you can't take criticism, perhaps you should put the mouse down and step away from the computer before you hurt yourself.

Stinky dinners do not give people cancer nor do obnoxious neighbor kids.  SECNAVINST 5100.13.E states "Involuntary exposure to tobacco smoke has been shown to cause cancer, lung and heart disease in healthy nonsmokers."  Closing windows is a great solution when the AC is on but second hand smoke also comes through the central ventiliation system and there is no way to keep it from coming into nonsmokers apartments.  This is not entitlement, it is a right to not be exposed to cancer causing carcinogens.

First and foremost, let's try to be adults here and not resort to name calling. This is normally an excellent forum for discussing issues. Name calling and just overall nastiness doesn't solve the issue and it doesn't do anything except make people ignore the valid points of the argument.

Now that I have gotten that off my chest, back to the topic. I think that ThaiGuy is absolutely correct. Segregating smoking and non-smoking residents would solve the problem. Unfortunately, if this were enacted today, it might be 2 or 3 years before it is actually a working solution. If we make all of housing non-smoking and went to designated smoking areas, who would enforce it? The base has a hard enough time enforcing loud noise complaints. Add to that smoking areas outside, where my kids go to play. Have you seen what a smoking area looks like after a day or two?

I am not a smoker, but I have no problems with the status quo. If you do have problems with it, housing, the CFAY CO, and CNFJ all have comment boxes at their offices. Get organized! Write representatives and base organizations. Demand action! Just be prepared for the solution not being as quick or as aggressive as you would like it. Although cigarette smoke is disgusting, smokers are citizens of our community too and should have a say in the solution.

One other solution is to simply have those that choose to smoke in the towers do so in the exterior stair wells. The exterior stair wells all have windows and access is from the master bedrooms. Because of their location on the towers they are also far enough away from the balconies that it greatly reduces the chance of second-hand smoke affecting others.

There are other good options mentioned above as well and all should be included in the discussion. If we can get the discussion to continue with the powers that be....

Posted By felinious on 06-04-2011 5:00 PM
First and foremost, let's try to be adults here and not resort to name calling. This is normally an excellent forum for discussing issues. Name calling and just overall nastiness doesn't solve the issue and it doesn't do anything except make people ignore the valid points of the argument.

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It's not about a sense of entitlement, it's about continuously trying to make our communities a better place to live. Anyone who was here 20 years ago knows that Yokosuka has come a long way in 2 decades. If people way back then had been content with what they had, many improvements you take for granted today would not be here now.

Posted By marcsantossr on 06-04-2011 12:45 PM
We have worked with our smoking neighbors and have gone the extra mile to live harmoniously, but when you ask a smoker to call you before they smoke so you can simply close your windows and doors and they don't then what do you think the next step ought to be?

Don't get me wrong, I HATE cigarette smoke and find it rather disgusting, but having s/one call you every time they want to light up seems a bit excessive to me.  In my personal opinion, dealing with noisy neighbors and cigarette smoke is par for the course when living in community housing.  I certainly wouldn't want to deal with it, which is why I live out in town. 

Have you considered vent covers, like these:



I don't think you'll have to worry about the smoke coming in your home if you use these and close your windows.  It may be an inconvenience on your part, but as I said earlier, when you live in a tower, it's just s/thing you have to expect.  If you're sensitive to noise or smoke (like I am), then it's best to find s/where out in town where you won't be bothered by such a nuisance. 

Wow you guys are nuts or have never lived anywhere ever! Have you not ever lived in community living, uh I don't know like an apartment building..and had to deal with this. What did you do?? Write your congressman?? Call the police?? Since you don't have ICE etc. Maybe you deal with it, try to come to a solution with the neighbor or move. Have you ever bought what you thought was your dream home only to find out that your neighbors smoke and party all the time, wow then what?? Think about it, It is a free country and people can do what they want.
We hope that people can be courteous of others but most of the time they're not. So what do you do?? Complain complain complain and vote for Obama lol, maybe he can save you and then your world will be problem free...
Just remember it is a slippery slope...

What gets me more than the 2nd hand smoke thing, and btw kudos the marcsantossr for at least attempting to provide a viable alternative, is how if someone is told "no" to anything they start spouting about freedoms and rights being infringed upon. I was reading a facebook posting about the airconditioning which made me sick to my stomach.

There has been a piling-on of whining behavior lately, and this was the cap for me. I think I was more perturbed about the behaviour of some during the VMAD and subsequent return than anything else. It became less about safety than figuring out how to milk the jtr for entitlements.

When ICE comments and message board complaining replace discourse and conversation for fixing issues, we are not making a better community. We are hiding behind assumed names or removing the necessity to actually stand behing our complaints. It has become too easy to whimper about things, so we make issue of the smallest slight and publish it to the world. This puts everyone on edge and hurts us all as a community, not heals.

I can't disagree more that many dependents display extreme entitlement issues. I was a manager with MWR for 2 years. I could bore you with details, but some of the complaints were so extreme and the top it would make you laugh and then cry. I had someone demand me fired because I refused to grant a refund for a movie that the customer didn't enjoy. They watched the whole thing, then walked out and asked for their 2 dollars back. When denied, they ICED all the way to the CO. Nice.

Better communities start with better communication. Not compiling the highest number of complaints.

Makami, my name is Marc Santos Sr, just as my user ID here is. I do not believe in hiding, I am easy to find. I have a long career working in support of the Navy and am proud to support the best Navy in the world. I am not one who looks at the word entitlement and see it the way you do. When I hear entitlement I think of people who live off of the government without putting anything into the government. I pay my taxes, and have done so for years.

If we as a people were to simply let every thing go because someone else disagrees with our position then America would never have become a country. Our founding fathers would have acquiesced to the British monarchy and kept paying those taxes. But they did not, they stood up for what they believed even though others disagreed, and they were not in a democracy either. Once our country was solidified and the bill of rights created we all were given the right to redress our government if we are grieved. That includes living abroad in support of the government. Rules and regulations are put into place for a reason and generally those reasons have sufficient factual evidence in order to prevent certain actions or behaviors from occurring that could cause harm or endanger the lives of others, and to establish order.

While I do respect your right to your opinion, your opinion will not sway me from my own especially when you speak without knowing the history of my concerns. You said I should go face-to-face to deal with the issue - that was already done. I went to my neighbor, knocked on his door and gave them my phone number. I only asked that if he was going to smoke on the balcony that he call me so we could close our windows. He has never called me. We have been putting up with the second hand smoke for over 5 months, working first with housing to fix the ventilation in my apartment before even talking to my neighbor.

The neighbor who moved out of the same apartment in October used to cook food on the grill almost every night. We made the same request of him and he called us ahead of time so we could close our windows. We got along just fine. Now we have a neighbor who will not call and does not follow the requests of housing authorities who have asked him to smoke from his master bedroom balcony.

This is a summary of the history. If you want to meet me and talk in person over lunch or something I am willing to do so, not that you should feel obligated. But I like to meet people face-to-face because electronic forums are an imperfect medium for communicating effectively to a large degree because we cannot see each others' body language nor hear each others' voice inflections that round out human communication.

Since we are both here in Ikego we could meet at Club Takemiya one evening. Let me know if you care to meet or not.

KNJ, no it is not truly a free country, people cannot "do what they want" that is why we have the rules and laws, but I could be nuts :-D

I have lived in many places over my 54 years and I can say that if I am in an area where I do not have the ability to influence an outcome that I won't stay for long. But when I am in an area where the country I am a citizen of does give me the right to have my grievances redressed I do what I can to make positive change. How do you think you are able to enjoy the freedoms you do have? People like me, whether for good or bad, whether you agree or disagree, stood up and brought an issue to light and fought for a change. Now if that is complaining to you, keep living. I am sure that no one on this thread who has posted to the negative has never complained, in fact you are complaining right now about my issue and how I want to see it resolved.

When we don't know someone it is easy to make ignorant statements about that person and those statements are assumptions that are most likely to be false. So I offer you too the chance to get to know me. If ever you have the desire to see me and get to know me then just let me know, you will find my email in a post above.

Tell you what Marc, when I get to ikego (probably around the first of July), you will be the first person I look up.

I am not knocking the fact you seem to have an inconsiderate neighbor, or the fact you shouldn't have to have your house smell like smoke. White I don't necessarily agree with is your method of venting it.

If it were me, which it isn't; but entertain me here, I would request an audience with the housing director. I would breing with me dates and times which I spoke with my neighbor, and the dates in which he continues to disregard my request. Second, I would approach the command directly. I would seek out the CMC and let him know the situation and provide him the documentation I gave the Housing Director. If this failed, I would possibly seek out thw senior medical officer at the clinic about the potential for a health risk.

And, get this, each time I went to one of these officials, I would let my neighbor know first.

I definitely wouldn't send something to the Whitehouse, DODIG Hotline, or even ICE. There is a way to handle everything, and behind an electronic veil isn't it.

My years as a Marine taught me be honest and direct. I continue to live that way as a civilian.

Makami, it would be my pleasure to meet you and I would be honored just to shake your hand for the service you have rendered to our country. I sincerely respect your thoughts on how you would approach the situation and am giving it serious consideration. I am a person who, if it matters to me enough to comment on it, will always put my name behind it. I don't support annonymous complaints unless there is a reasonable expectation of physical harm from making a report.

When I went to ICE I commented on the fact that they did not have a category to provide feedback on town hall meetings, etc., and I left my name and email address for them to get back to me. I have not sent anything as of yet to any agency, I only provided the option for myself and others if and when that option needs to executed, which will be based upon future local decisions. So far we are headed that way, but just as a person posted above, these things will take time to come to fruition if initiated. Heck by the time anything is done I may be on my way home due to the 5 year rule. So it is better to keep pressing locally, applying pressure by inferring higher level review (somoetimes it works and sometimes it does not and then either you do end up going higher up the chain or dropping the issue altogether because it is OBE by then). Thaiguy said it best, it truly is a issue of will and commitment by the Command to address this issue; so far there is none locally to support my desires and I think it is a safe bet though that the Whitehouse will never intervene.

What I find daffy is the enforcement of the order to not walk and smoke on base. I would rather eliminate that order for a plan that would place smokers in a specific location within towers (i.e. smokers to the north and non-smokers to the south) or put smokers on the higher floors, and more immediately to authorize the external stairwells as a designated smoking area until time allows for the implementation of a placement strategy.

I will tell you this too, I plan on going to my neighbor again and sitting down with him. He is not a bad guy, just inconsiderate. My wife called me at work and told me that he smoked from the dining room balcony again this afternoon and she was not able to close the doors in time before the smoke filled up the apartment. My wife is an ex-smoker and she does have a physical reaction to second-hand smoke; most of the time she literally chokes from coughing when the smoke hits her lungs so we tend to stay away from places where smoking is likely to be as much as possible. I will see if that knowledge leads us to an understanding whereby we can agree upon a solution.

Keeping my fingers crossed....

Good luck, Marc. I apologize for my rush to judgement; it seems you and I have the same idea about approach.

I hope you can talk sense into this guy.

Makami, no problem man! I will let you know how it goes.