The following is a comment I just submitted to ICE.  I will share any response I get back from them.  I am, on the one hand, a retiree so I'm sensitive to these issues.  On the other hand, I'm a contractor with SOFA status, so I can side-step the impact of the policy I'm questioning.  Even though I'm not directly affected, I still believe this is an atrocious use of authority, utterly disrespectful of our retirees & their families.

For those in Yokosuka, I need to point out cultural differences between Yokosuka & Iwakuni (I served twice in Yokosuka on active duty; I understand certain community issues that continue to pop up around there.)  There is no ruling "mafia" in our Exchange and commissary. Management is proactive and customer service standards are high. There is a community spirit here that makes it so pleasant to live in Iwakuni. I'm not dissing Yokosuka, I just want to say there is not some huge cultural problem that Iwakuni leadership is called on to resolve.

In other words, their restrictions on retirees and their families addresses no tangible problem that I can see after having lived here for two years. Truthfully, I think leadership here is applying management structures that were necessary in Europe & elsewhere under different SOFA constraints, none of which are needed in Iwakuni.

-------------------- (My ICE Comment) -----------------------
I am APPALLED at the increasing level of CONTEMPT being heaped upon our nation's retired servicemen & women by the command structure at MCAS Iwakuni. I first raised this concern via ICE when Ironworks Gym posted signs excluding retirees from the gym. I got a nice reply from Mr. Durning which said, in part, "American military retirees are and will continue to be permitted full access to the facility, classes, and services available through Ironworks." I was very pleased with his courteous and well-reasoned response.

Now this issue has crept up again at the Iwakuni commissary. Inexplicably, a sign has appeared at the entrance stating that dependents of retirees cannot enter without the retiree being present.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? What problem, exactly, are you trying to solve?  Are you saying the retiree spouse mafia is overrunning the place and needs to be reeled in?  Are you alleging wanton black-marketing on the Japanese economy attributable to families of retirees?  Are you saying spouses of retirees are incompetent & need hand-holding, somehow unworthy of the recognition of their years of sacrifice by arbitrarily limiting a benefit that they had reasonably expected for the rest of their life?

If ever there was a solution in search of a problem, this is it.  You dishonor our service, you dishonor our families, you seem to be unaware that in a few short years you will be where we are now, disrespected by those in uniform and relegated to some sort of dustbin for reasons unfathomable that our sacrifice must go unrewarded. 

I understand Europe operates under different rules.  Such rules are not necessarily locally legislated, but are a result of the bilateral SOFA agreement with the host country. Even Korea operates under different rules.  This is not Europe; this is not Korea.  In Japan, retirees are authorized full use of facilities unless directed otherwise by local authority.  This does not mean local authority MUST direct otherwise; only that it CAN.  Again I ask: What is the problem you are trying to solve?  And when does the solution end up being worse than the initial problem?  I can't think of anything much worse than heaping disdain on our country's valiant retired warriors and their families. Please rethink this atrocious policy and the direction in which you are leading this fine Air Station as a trendsetter in upholding our nation's cherished values.

Just wondering... Are you seeing restrictions against retirees on other bases besides Iwakuni? Are they blocked from the gym, are dependents of retirees restricted from the commissary?

I'm not retired, so I'm not certain. But here on Yokosuka, I've never seen any kind of signs preventing retirees from entering the commissary/NEX/gym.

What. The. Hell.

I mean, do you guys have a problem with stock (like a real problem, not just the usual problems we have living overseas)? That's just ridiculous. Every active duty member and spouse there needs to fight that issue too because that will be their future (and worse) if they let this slid.

(And no, no restrictions on facilities like that here in Yokosuka)

Tessa/Elizabeth: Thank you for the reply.

The answer is, no... There is no problem with stock here in Iwakuni. The retiree population in this little farming town is nil; I could tally them up without taking my shoes off. The commissary is well-stocked. It is beyond me to see what problem they are trying to solve.

Barely 24 hours after submitting my ICE comment, I did get a reply from a member of the command staff at Iwakuni. It didn't say much, but at least they didn't ignore my comment. I now have an ongoing dialog with this individual to try to clarify just what is their intent with the (very small) retiree community around Iwakuni.

Here's what he said:
"Let me thank you for using the ICE system, letting the command know your concerns. I would like to let you know that the Station access regulations are being reviewed extensively with the intent of ensuring compliance with all applicable orders and regulations."

That's all I got. :-P

Hmmmm. Hopefully it will change. Let us know.

I'm still baffled over such a ridiculous rule (and pissed, lol).

fwiw, I was at a luncheon today in honor of station volunteers. At the end of the event, I was approached by both the Station Sergeant-Major and the Commanding Office (whom I didn't realize even knows me.) Both expressed concern about this matter, hoped I'd gotten the info I was looking for, and assured me the policy is still under review.

Without going into specifics, this review was, in fact, triggered by certain events; allegations of abuse of commissary privileges by retirees & their families. So this wasn't some spontaneous "let's-hate-retirees" attitude, but rather a command response to something that happened. It's good to know they heard my concern, and we'll see how this shakes out.

Good news... the sign has been taken down from the commissary so I guess dispossessed spouses of retirees are able to shop again in our commissary. I'll check around & see what happened.

I've been thinking about this one for awhile.

I do think there is a problem in Japan and Korea, I didn't notice the problem in my Europe tours. I have seen black market commissary items being sold on the streets in Korea, and I suspect some of that goes on in Japan too.

Having said that this problem has been going on as long as we have had commissaries, so it's not really a new issue for local commanders and leadership to address.

I really don't see how requiring dependents to accompany retirees will prevent it though. I'm not convinced it's always retirees dependents either. Maybe the NCIS, CID, OSI should follow home those that purchase extraordinary amounts (you know a few grocery carts full of the same hard to get items) and track those products to the final destination.

I also find it odd that I have to show my ID card to someone at the door of the commissary to a person that is most likely not a US citizen and most likely doesn't even have commissary privileges themselves.

Yokota, your post kind of borthers me. I cant speak about Korea, but I think that you don't really understand the people or products here in Japan. Japan is not a third world country with America envy. It is a proud, thriving, and technologically advanced nation with an economy larger than that of the European Union. The products that are offered at thier stores are every bit as good and in some cases better than what we offer in our stores, and there is no shortage of these items. My family doesen't buy produce from the Commissary because it is quite inferior to the produce offered at Japanese stores. Even if Commisary produce is cheaper, we prefer to eat Japanese produce because we think that it is usually a better product. The only reason that they keep Japanese out of the Commisary is due to the prices on our groceries being signifigantly lower on comparable items. They don't really want to advertise that we are being provided something of an unfair advantage here. People do try to take advantage of the Commissaries in the States as well. That's why the cashiers always ask to see your I.D. at checkout to verify your Commissary privilege in the States. They just do it at the front here. They have to employ people who do not have privilege because there just isnt enough surplus American or dependent population here to fill all of the jobs required to support a fully functioning Commissary. Going back to Thai-guy's original post, if you are SOFA sponsored, how is it fair to be denied the Commissary? Is the base leadership in Okinawa just trying to make life more difficult for the people who help support our fighting forces and thier dependents?

That's great news, ThaiGuy. The thought they were screwing retired dependents out of their "privileges" was pretty unsettling. 'Specially since it's only a troubling few ruining it for everyone else. I'm glad the command took notice and cared to correct the problem.

I have seen locals buy all the cottage cheese when it arrives (all) in one grocery cart and nothing else.  Every time it gets stocked.  Maybe I'm wrong..... maybe some people just have to have the entire base supply of cottage cheese at their house every week or so.... or maybe I'm right. 

My local commissary is full of locals buying it out of stock everyday.  Perhaps your family doesn't shop there but allot do, if they are authorized to shop there that's just fine it's when the system gets abused that causes concern for everyone.

Being retired is not SOFA sponsored just try to get some packages at the post office with a retired (blue) ID card.  Retirees are afforded BX/PX/NEX and commissary privileges but that doesn't mean they are SOFA status.

Lastly how did we get to 3rd world comparisons?  It doesn't really matter what your economy has or doesn't have or how great or different you believe it is from Korea.  The issue is people abusing the commissary system and resulting in discrimination to others. 

As for the employment reference comment, your information isn't exactly accurate based on some things I have seen to include kick backs and discrimination but that's a whole different topic.

Felinious: Just to correct a couple of things... This policy would not affect anyone who is SOFA sponsored, since they can get into the commissary with their SOFA privileges. But a retiree married to a Japanese national who is NOT SOFA would have had a problem. Also, Iwakuni is NOT on Okinawa (a common misperception.) We're on good ol' Honshu just like you, tucked in next to Hiroshima. You oughta come visit someday, and see Miyajima Island.

Yokota: I understand your comments about black marketing, but truthfully after 2 years in Iwakuni I see no evidence of that here. Our commissary is pretty well-stocked for a small facility; if something is out of stock it's usually due to shipping problems, not due to abuse. At any rate, if someone comes through the line with a cart full of cottage cheese or beef or peanut butter, there ought to be a procedure for the cashier to call a manager, inquire as to the need (maybe you're stocking up for a community picnic or something) but otherwise take the name of the individual, and if they show a pattern of abuse then put limits on that individual. From things I've heard from many sources, this is a far greater problem in Korea than in Japan for whatever reason, so in Japan this should be easily manageable on an individual basis. It drives me nuts when I see a knee-jerk, "punish everyone" kind of reaction that is so common in the military.

I watched a guy buy the entire new base shipment of Armour-All (2 boxes total) maybe there was 24 in a box?  At our little BX-Xtra, then he had the manager go in the back to find the second box, I was standing right behind him waiting to get just one bottle, then I watched just to see if he was going to get away with it. He did in fact and he even asked when the next shipment was coming in before he left. Maybe his tires were really dull I suppose and he really needed them. 

No I didn't get that one bottle I was looking for, I ended up driving to the next nearest military base a few days later and buying the product.

That really takes some nerve. They ought to train the cashiers (and the manager, in this case) that if someone is buying more than apparently needed for normal household use to ask some questions, record a name, etc. You wouldn't necessarily deny the purchase, but you could establish a track record of who appears to be abusing the system for eventual follow-up.

The easy solution is to issue out the old "Rationing Cards" again or just ration everything to a reasonable quantity. An easy way to track it would be to tie all purchases to that DBIDS ID card and give it a real purpose instead of just logging in how many times you drive through the gate in a day. Therefore all purchases can be monitored and reviewed, if your doing nothing wrong it won't impact you or your family at all. If you have questionable actions then the command would have a little physical evidence to support their claims so they could follow up on it.

I got a copy of the policy letter from the Iwakuni station commander, based on their recent review. I'm pleased to see this vindicates our position that our military retirees AND their family members ought to be honored and respected. The letter implies that the matter is being reviewed at higher levels at MCBJ, but for now our rights are preserved.

Hopefully the letter is attached, if I did everything right...

The .PDF worked just fine.

Great, still glad the command followed through accordingly. I wonder if they'll do anything about the people causing the "need" for the restriction in the first place...

Yeah, it's hard to get the "true story" of what actually happened, although the rumor of retiree families (probably Japanese wives) buying stuff to send north for disaster relief comes from a well-placed source in the command organization. It's hard to fault someone with such good intentions, probably trying to help family members who needed emergency assistance, but still it's illegal. I know, unlike the Exchange, you are not allowed to buy gifts at the commissary and give them away even for free.

The U.S. Army at Camp Kure (Commissary) was doing this the last time, I was in Japan (not the managers idea), In fact even a dependent spouse who's husband is now deceased can not use the Commissary their. I think possibly three elderly women live near by. Any other areas have this problem?

Tom

Hey Thai Guy, got a question to resurrect your original post. Do the Marines down there allow retirees into the chow hall, or they dishonor retirees as they do in Yokosuka and now allow them in? I bet they do knowing Marines.

Posted By William on 09-15-2011 1:14 AM

The U.S. Army at Camp Kure (Commissary) was doing this the last time, I was in Japan (not the managers idea), In fact even a dependent spouse who's husband is now deceased can not use the Commissary their. I think possibly three elderly women live near by. Any other areas have this problem?

Tom

Hi Tom, welcome to JB.  I'm sorry to hear that Kure is taking such a hard line about it. It all got resolved here & back to the status quo in Iwakuni. According to those involved with the review, the SOFA wording on this matter is somewhat ambiguous. The local thinking was, since it can be interpreted in different ways, it's best not to push the matter too hard or it may be re-interpreted in an unfavorable way.  If you read the letter I posted from the station commander, he's decided that higher-level instructions allow retiree access to installation facilities (not limited just to commissaries.)  This also applies to spouses of retirees and surviving spouses of deceased retirees.

If you happen to be in Kure, try taking a copy of this letter to the local officials to see what happens.  I don't think other Army stations in Japan have any issue with it, so why should Kure?

Posted By Mike LNCM Ret. on 09-15-2011 5:42 AM
Hey Thai Guy, got a question to resurrect your original post. Do the Marines down there allow retirees into the chow hall, or they dishonor retirees as they do in Yokosuka and now allow them in? I bet they do knowing Marines.

Hi Mike. I'm pretty sure retirees cannot eat in the Iwakuni chow hall except on special occasions.  On certain holidays they'll open it up to a wider audience, but not on a daily basis.  Next time I meet with the gang of old grumpy guys I'll raise the question.  We get together for breakfast from time to time; there's only like a dozen of us down here.

Requarding Kure, I was told by the Manager that this was a Army wide requirement in Japanthat started a few years ago and he pointed to SOFA regarding this. As usual the Army went over board, especially since BRAC has been trying to close them as they stay in the red.

Tom

I had the same problem when I was a working in Yokosuka Naval Base. I was a retired CPO, working on base.
My wife could not enter the BX or the Commissary. I had to do all the shopping, which sometime worked and sometime not. (men vs. women desires).
They all seem to forget what a retiree (veteran) is and what they have done. I always think about this definition when I get upset at someone.
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his/her life wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America' for an amount of 'up to and including my life.' That is Honor!
Good luck in your en devour.

Ron -- that truly sucks! As far as I know, that's no longer the case in Yokosuka. There is a very vocal group of retirees there & I haven't heard them griping about their spouses being unable to get into the commissary.

William -- The manager may have been telling the truth; it might be an Army interpretation of SOFA, but it's likely an incorrect interpretation. From the review they did in Iwakuni, they found SOFA somewhat vague on the matter, and they were persuaded by higher authority to drop it & not ask too many questions lest they shine unwanted light on the topic. The vagueness allows it to be interpreted either way, so they ended up conforming to other Marine Corps authorities & allow retiree spouses to shop unaccompanied. It sounds like Army ended up on the opposite side of the matter unless they've relooked at it in recent year.

What will be interesting is if the federally unrecognized 'partners' of gays will now be allowed to enter. i.e. Defenese of Marriage Act. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defens...rriage_Act

As far as I know that has not yet been abolished, but I expect it will be.

I came across this thread/topic as I was reading about Iwakuni.

Firts off,THai Guy, I thank you for taking a stand on this as you have. It was needed and your tact and deportment has been above reproach.
Semper Fi!

I wanted to share I was stationed in Iwakuni during this time period and was active duty at one of the bigger commands. I remember this debacle and was feeling the same. I spent sometime explaining your topic and the dynamic of this situation with my wife who is Japanese and was married to while I was stationed there. After her and I discussing this situation and this "new" station order that reinvented already set policy..which made things "back" to normal. I really started to think about this situation and boy ol boy did the memories start to come back..and now hopefully I can share with you and all the types of things that lead up to this wether it be civilan or military.

-While I was there and about 8 months prior to this commicary debacle. Many months prior we had a senior/snco PME in the SNCO club down stairs below where the Eagle nest used to be. I was off around the side leaning on one of the 2 pool tables with stick in hand listening. Our SgtMajor passed word about the way ahead etc. One of the topics I found particularly substancial. Our SgtMaj was telling us we should know our Marines and what is going on in their homefront, personnal lives, etc..to the point that we can hopefully prevent a problem before it festers up into a really bad situation..standard usmc mentorship. Very good stuff.
But here goes... He said "you need to know your young guys and if they are dating non-americans "(which isnt necessarly bad) but next he said "so when he gets married its for the right reasons and not for shopping at "d gate wig px in de sky" which was meaning the great big px on base. He scoffed and laughed as did 50% of the room at his antics. I felt how un professional and honestly racist. This was belittling asian women and directly making fun of asian pronunciation and more importantly refering that japanese women want to shop there and thats why these gals marry these Marines..lol Which they could care less..heck Japan/Europe and Australia wont import our beef and poultry because it doesnt meet their health standards...lol look it up but anyways.. So right there I could see how this so called senior enlisted advisor viewed them. truth was then known how he felt about dependents not of American origin.
-Fast forward to the next week. Our Mastery GySgt in our staff meeting says SgtMaj is right. and he wants "a by name roster of the Marines and girlfriends names and their nationalities....Really!! See how the spirit is growing negatively about this situation. Nevertheless, I didnt do that garbage. But I say all that to say this. Well Guess what? Gets better.. That good ole SgtMaj that made his personal feeling apparent in belitteling and joking about asian dependents got moved over to Station..hummmmm and then low and behold now this "problem" is rissing out of the ground....you reap what you sow. Especially at the command level you will.
Now at the commisarry a retired Marines Japanese National wife is discriminated against because of what? Im so ashamed..
     These orders were ALREADY in place LONG ago that nailed it down but is "suddenly flaired up.. like you said without taking of your shoes you can count the retired families over there. I honestly call this racism and pure ignorance getting in the way of our earned/legal entitlements for our family and ourself.
Leadership at ALL level is responsible for fostering a command climate and atmosphere and spirit that we can and cant act a certain way do and not do certain behavior. When those who are in charge of the base or thee senior enlisted advisor to him or her and has made comments like this in the past inst the foundation is being set for racial discrimination and profiling for no good reason.

And next you got MCX, MCCS entities going with the flow, at the gym, exchange, putting up these signs etc.

I feel better getting this off my chest and as a Marine it is shameful to say, but its the truth and it should be know so we dont do it again.

P.S.
If your running out of cottage cheese cause mama san is buying it all up there in korea or where ever you are . Put a limit on how many a family can buy each day week whatever.. Wal Mart does it...dugh...

Semper Fi

Joe D: Thank you for adding to this conversation. I can literally feel my blood boil as you give more background as to what actually happened a year ago. You are spot on as to the racist nature of comments you heard; "Unprofessional and racist" as you say, is absolutely right! Some people are just stuck in the Neanderthal age. I commend you for refusing to follow what are probably unlawful orders to report back on the girlfriends of your Marines & their nationalities. It's nobody's business! Why not report back on who has American girlfriends, with a full assessment of the girl's moral background? It would be just as useful (meaning, not at all.)

I mentioned previously that I had gotten feedback from a member of the command organization; I'll give you 3 guesses as to who it was and his initials are SgtMaj. :-) He actually tracked down my phone number and gave me a call back when this was a hot issue. He was pretty steamed up that I'd "gone over his head" with my ICE complaint. Obviously I was shining light where he didn't want it shined which told me that I was on the right track!

You uphold the honor of the Corps. Semper fi, and keep up the good work!

Mike, 
I don’t think not including retirees in the chow hall is “dishonoring retirees” for pete’s sake. No one promised subsidised meals for life after retirement.  The chow hall is funded to feed the active duty troops; plain and simple. It used to be that retirees understood and supported supporting the TROOPS not just me me me!